MS&E 472 - Entrepreneurial Thought Leaders Seminar Series

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Welcome to the Spring 2008 edition of ETL! Please report any problems you encounter to the website team. Please note that you are encouraged to reply to others' posts. We want to facilitate discussion instead of having everyone make their own topic! On the other hand, if you want to bring up a new topic, then please do create one.

#1 2008-02-20 17:45:11

Cheryl.Rivera
New member
Registered: 2007-10-03
Posts: 8

FDA - good vs. bad

In business and technology contexts I have normally heard the FDA portrayed in a bad light - slowing innovation, driving up costs, unnecessary red tape, etc.  I thought Mr. Imran’s positive opinion of FDA regulation was very interesting.  Not only did he have a positive opinion, he thought it was “essential” and spoke of many positive aspects such as documentation, planning, and traceability.  It was particularly interesting that he downplayed any business advantage related to expertise in FDA processes or barriers to entry, but emphasized the more technical-related benefits.  I thought this was a refreshing perspective.

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#2 2008-02-20 21:49:38

David.Trieu
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Registered: 2008-01-10
Posts: 8

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

Like Mir, I think we all should see the FDA in a positive light because despite the grueling, exhaustive approval process, their top priority is consumer safety. Even with the FDA's careful scrutiny, we see drugs like Vioxx and Avandia being recalled and pulled from the market in the interest of consumer safety. I guess the biggest concern that comes to my mind is whether or not the increase and fear of product recalls will hinder or even stop the R&D innovation in these pharma and biotech companies. How will these companies survive if they keep losing billions of dollars on lost R&D from recalled drug products and dealing with lawsuits and other legal issues?

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#3 2008-02-20 22:59:23

Jeff.Keacher
Member
Registered: 2007-10-08
Posts: 15

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I have selfish reasons for my feelings about the FDA.  I'm glad that devices and drugs are tested and approved before being marketed.  I'm unhappy about the process.

Having worked for a major medical device manufacturer, I can say that it's a pain to get things approved by the FDA.  The amount of tests and documentation that we would submit was astronomical: tens of thousands of pages, all of it dry and technical.  We had people on staff whose entire job was to work on FDA submissions.  Then, once everything was ready and submitted, it would take a very long time to get approval.  For example, the supposedly accelerated "real-time" reviews took about six months.  Incredible.

There is one upside for the device companies: thanks to a very recent Supreme Court ruling, devices that have been granted FDA approval have a tremendous amount of shielding from tort claims.

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#4 2008-02-21 21:05:31

Zack.Arnold
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Registered: 2008-01-23
Posts: 9

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

Considering the various problems with the FDA I too found it very interesting that he thoroughly approved of it:
1. Contributing to higher drug costs.
2. Disallowing Drug reimportation.
3. Restricting free speech in food and drug labeling.
4. Delaying Approval of useful drugs (as viewed by the circumstance above)
among many other issues. I guess, however, despite the FDA's obvious problems, it is nearly as good as it can get adminstratively and seems to improve yearly.

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#5 2008-02-23 13:47:36

Solomon.Lee
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Registered: 2008-01-12
Posts: 7

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

Whereas I definitely find the FDA necessary, I agree with Jeff Keacher that the process is not the most efficient system in the world.  I visited Genentech once that they spoke of how difficult and grueling passing the FDA regulations was.  Products that could drastically change health conditions are not able to get released into the market for nearly a decade because of FDA regulations.  Certainly, there are cases such as in Europe where a underdeveloped drug is released and must be recalled, but in my personal opinion, the FDA goes too far.

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#6 2008-02-23 18:24:58

Lauren.Bishop
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Registered: 2008-01-16
Posts: 6

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I also found it really interesting to see someone from the business world approve of a system that's often a hassle to deal with...

but,
"1. Contributing to higher drug costs.
2. Disallowing Drug reimportation.
3. Restricting free speech in food and drug labeling.
4. Delaying Approval of useful drugs (as viewed by the circumstance above)"

are all costs of that system, so in approving of the system he does, in a sense, "approve" of these costs as part of that system (i don't think he approves of these costs just for kicks)

as far as businesses surviving despite all of the money lost to lawsuits and going through the fda's system....  that's why we have most of the drug companies owned by corporations.  smaller drug companies which are trying to drive down price and bring about innovation just can't make it in a world with the fda (which i think is a good organization, if not a difficult one to deal with) and the larger companies.

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#7 2008-02-23 22:20:06

Alvin.Tse
Member
Registered: 2008-01-14
Posts: 14

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

FDA is a good system for most of the time in my opinion but when it comes to some cases like treating breast cancer terminal patients, it's like a hope killer when it decided to not approve Avastin.

The whole process of approval takes too long and those particular patients don't have the time to wait.

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#8 2008-02-23 23:13:57

yesul.myung
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Registered: 2008-01-09
Posts: 8

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I definitely do not think that the FDA goes to far in terms of ensuring safety to the consumers. In fact, I don't think the FDA goes far enough in some cases. There are some products in the market that are being sold without FDA approval and the FDA does nothing to stop the selling of these products. For example, there was an eyelash growth enhancer product being sold which caused secondary effects but the company was not closed down until 2 years after they were selling the products! FDA needs to be quicker in this aspect.

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#9 2008-02-24 14:08:44

Scott.McAlpine
Member
Registered: 2008-01-22
Posts: 10

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

If you are really interested, do some research on the (unsuccessful) "Wiley Act" of 1906 or the "Food, Drug, and Cosmetics Act" of 1938, which gave the FDA the power oversee safety (and efficacy for drugs) of such products.  One of the most important functions of this act was to put the burden of proof of the safety and efficacy of products on the manufacturer.  Prior to this, the companies could make any claim they wanted with regard to their product--I suppose one would say they had "unrestricted freedom of speech"( to use verbage from a previous post).  The burden of proof was on the consumer, who was likely very sick, if not dead, to prove that they had been harmed by their product.

While the process of conducting trials and gaining approval is a hassle, it is neccessary to protect consumers from suppliers who either knowingly distribute dangerous/ineffective products, or don't do the necessary research to ensure their safety and efficacy.

Without it, unscrupulous "entrepreneurs" would once again take advantage of a system that allows them to turn a quick profit at the expense of public health.

Last edited by Scott.McAlpine (2008-02-24 14:17:05)

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#10 2008-02-25 10:02:25

Hannah.Briggs
Member
Registered: 2008-02-02
Posts: 14

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

While I totally agree about the great benefits of the FDA (especially with drugs), I do think that the whole barrier to entry thing is a big deal.  There are many sall companies that could develop life-saving medical devices, but don't (or won't) because of the high costs of FDA approval.  I just think it's a shame that the FDA restricts the market to such a degree.  Perhaps it is time to overhaul the approval process to eliminate some of the backlog (haven't they done something like this with the patent office?  Maybe they could do something similar?).

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#11 2008-02-25 10:08:14

Rishi.Natarajan
Member
Registered: 2007-04-04
Posts: 28

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I think that there are certainly more barriers to entry than just the FDA that deter small companies from being able to develop life-saving medical devices, medicines, etc. At least with respect to the drug development cycle, even to meet internal quality requirements (assuming that a company were to follow its own standards in the absence of ones provided by the FDA) the time required to test, improve, and retest a drug until it would be considered satisfactory would reflect the a significant amount of the time required for the drug to receive approval. While the FDA perhaps could be operated in a more efficient manner (with the goal being to speed up approval processes, decrease the number of FDA-approved products that are later recalled, etc.), the consumer market would not be left better off were the FDA absent. Thus, despite the FDA's problems (some of which are listed in above posts), they do seem to be making improvements yearly and the public would be well served to see the FDA continue to become more efficient such that delays in releasing drugs, medical devices, etc. to market can decrease going forward.

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#12 2008-02-25 15:00:51

Edward.Browka
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Registered: 2008-01-14
Posts: 8

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

Mir played down the business aspects surrounding the FDA  to much,  true the FDA makes companies prove safety, efficacy, document and trace.  But I've seen companies that know how to play the FDA game get way ahead, at much less time and financial expense.  I worked as a device designer at both small and huge med device companies (4yrs)

From a device standpoint, one thing that I think Tina was getting at but Mir sorta downplayed was the impact of the FDA on competition.   Here being second to market with a break through is much easier....   getting a totally new device approved is a significant chain of hurdles, but proving that you are near identical to a device (510k) is much faster and cheaper... so being a step behind the competition can be a great strategy for a small company. 

I've also seen big companies hire people straight from the FDA so they can get a current system expert,  and then see them know exactly how to word things, document things or slightly modify designs to make speed them through.   

The moral is that a med company has to have an active FDA approval strategy and not just believe in the process.

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#13 2008-02-25 18:47:31

Gadiel.Szleifer
New member
Registered: 2008-01-17
Posts: 7

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I see validity in both sides of this argument, and I am not 100% sure which one I am on. However, I just thought I'd point out one more less talked about anti FDA argument that had not shown up in this forum yet. Which is: restricting the drugs that can get into the market limits consumers' choices in what drugs to use. Sure, in principle this is to assure their safety. But what if a consumer is willing to take a certain risk in order to have the opportunity for a certain positive thing a drug might bring? He or she should be allowed to take that risk. While many may think that is a dumb thing to do, at the end of the day people should be allowed to choose what kind of drugs to use and if they make poor choices that is their own fault. Again this isn't to devalue all the other arguments or even my own opinion, just another one I have heard that I thought I'd throw out there.

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#14 2008-02-25 22:14:55

Jules.Maltz
New member
Registered: 2008-01-16
Posts: 7

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

Great discussion. My opinion is that the healthcare system in general needs major reform. There is very little high risk/high return research in healthcare, because the cost of testing many of these drugs is too high. How do we increase the variability and allow companies to fail fast and cheaply with highly innovative treatments that have the potential for high return. The cost of a Vioxx is certainly high, but does anyone calculate the opportunity cost of all of the new drugs we might be able to have with a more streamlined FDA process?

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#15 2008-02-25 23:29:42

Kenneth.Wee
New member
Registered: 2008-01-09
Posts: 8

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I think one point that was touched on but should be addressed more in depth is what would happen without an FDA. Just imagine how actually other countries are free-riding on what the FDA is doing to make sure that drugs are safe. As the one starting point for drugs developed for the rest of the world, it is actually more efficient to have a burdensome process in one place. Unfortunately, it does stifle competition at home in the US. Perhaps startups should go overseas first, and then come back?

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#16 2008-02-26 20:20:37

Ethan.Sufian
New member
Registered: 2008-01-17
Posts: 6

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I completely agree with Kenneth; a slow, inefficient, competition-stifling system for approving new drugs is infinitely better than no system at all.  A country without the FDA or a similar system of regulation would simply be market regulated and bad products would rely on people using them and witnessing negative effects.  Harmful or useless products would only disappear with diminished demand, provided there is good information about the effects of products (which we don't always get even with our system).  Maybe the FDA is bad from a competition perspective, but the whole point of such drugs is to help people stay healthy and an unregulated market would not accomplish this, so it's better to have an inefficient and burdensome process than no process at all.

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#17 2008-02-27 00:30:48

Tanmay.Mishra
New member
Registered: 2008-01-17
Posts: 9

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

All great comments and I definitely that Mir's positive support of the gruelling process of FDA besides making the devices safer for the public at large has a number of cascading advantages. I feel that the FDA tends to keep the process of medical device innovation under a check which i think is essential specially when young engineers like myself, full of passion for design enter this industry. Secondly, it also serves to enhance the process of entrepreneurship in countries such as India with minimal med device regualtions in place. FDA regulations provide a sort of a guiding light to communities which are essentially not directly regulated by it but can consider it a benchmark in the absence of other similar local laws.

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#18 2008-02-27 00:46:57

Xiaofan.Zhao
New member
Registered: 2008-01-16
Posts: 8

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I definitely agree that the healthcare system needs major reform. Biomedical and pharmaceutical companies feel discouraged to develop new drags because of the high cost. It reminds me of some recent news on the morality of animal use in biomedical research. A number of researchers from UCLA medical school were physically attacked by animal rights advocates and therefore forced to stop their research. Indeed the issue of lab animal use in biomedical research has become another impediment to advancement in the healthcare system. I think somehow we have to convince the animal rights activists that the significance of health research might outweighs the rights of animals.

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#19 2008-02-27 10:32:01

saranwut.takapong
Member
Registered: 2007-10-09
Posts: 24

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

I agree with Mir Imran that FDA is "essential" and love to hear that he talked about them in such a positive light. As the previous posts suggest, despite the arduous approval process, it's necessary for customers' protection. which certainly increase customers' confidence in products once they're in the market. With such regulations or even the option for some products not to get approved, the customers might still lean towards the approved products. In the worse case, if the consumers are not willing to try new products, this might discourage R&D projects, which is unfortunate.

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#20 2008-03-16 19:31:42

Akhil.Iyer
New member
Registered: 2008-01-16
Posts: 9

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

The FDA is vital to safety.  Certainly it can be a pain and a big cost for companies to go through the grueling FDA process, it is important to safety.  Historic recalls of drugs proves the importance of FDA regulation.  Certainly I agree with Solomon that the FDA process is not the most efficient, reorganization of the FDA is possible (albeit hard, given our lovely political system).

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#21 2008-03-22 02:14:23

Akhil.Iyer
New member
Registered: 2008-01-16
Posts: 9

Re: FDA - good vs. bad

And in response to Saranwut's quote, I also think that although some R&D projects will be discouraged, it keeps the quality of products higher, as only those who do put in much resources into R&D will go through with the process.  Such an investment most likely means that such a product is pretty valuable.

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